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Author Topic: Competitive Play  (Read 1359 times)

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Competitive Play
« on: May 06, 2010, 01:11:39 pm »
I have been studying top HoN teams and builds while not nerd raging and crying like a little girl. As the game is being released next week, I would like to quickly become competitive with a set team. As I have said earlier (albiet while frothing at the mouth) the Shens community easily has the individual skills to play competitively, all we need is a strategy and teamwork. On a side note, the sticked thread is a little outdated and contains alot of information that will hurt your gameplay. Again, I cannot stress enough reading the guides on the HoN site.
Note: As of May 10th, pushing comps with no carries are the metagame. I'm thinking we should try a soul reaper, nymphora, pollywog, defiler as a core. Maybe run hellbringer as well?

HEALERS IN COMPS
Three healer comps are godlike. Two heals on a team is basically mandatory. The reason is this; early game survivability, midgame domination, and late game endurance. In an early lane with Demented Shaman and Soul reaper, you sure as shit aren't getting a gank off in that lane. No fucking way. Midgame is when heals peak in effectiveness, this is where healing in team fights is a deciding factor. When you've got early and midgame dominated, lategame is basically already in the bag; heals are still incredibly useful for turning a barely won teamfight in which everyone must back off and heal into a successful push.
 Top tier healers- Accursed, Demented Shaman, Ophelia, and Soul Reaper. Each of these heros is omgwtfnerfthatshit when played with coordination. NOTE: You were right, Maguile. Jereziah gargles man mayonnaise and is rarely picked. It is my opinion that the ability to spam their spells, the ability to dps or heal, and the utility (see: Accursed shield/ulti purging) are king.

Accursed- Accursed is disgusting nasty due to his spammable spells. High level Accursed is almost never seen in play; he is always banned. FUCKING ALWAYS. The purge ability of his shield and his spammable nuke make him very, very powerful. His ulti makes him impossible to focus.

DShamz- Dshammerz is a great babysit, and early game healbombs will dominate a lane like no other. His shield ups survivability in leaps and bounds, and his heal/slow are quite powerful early/midgame. Late game he loses much of the utility of Accursed, but his shield and ultimate are still very strong.

Soul Reaper- Soul Reaper has a great aura, great spammable dps/heal, and great finisher ulti.

Ophelia - Even after the nerf, Ophelia is still supposedly a monster support. This is less due to her heals (although her ulti is quite potent), more due to her ability to chain stuns and gank.
Finally- Items. There are two* items that make a healer change from "good" to "fuck off and die, you're broken." Nome's Wisdom and Astrolabe. With these two items on either of the above three healers, you're looking at a massive output of healing. There is a very solid trend regarding heals: more heals = less deaths.
Note: Nome's Wisdom is getting nerfed, might not be godlike anymore.

*I am personally of the opinion that a properly dropped barrier idol is game breaking as well. 400 damage not taken is 400 damage healed.

CARRIES IN COMPS
Not all carries are created equal. Furthermore, many carries peak in effectiveness at different levels of farming. A Chronos reaches his maximum awesomeness earlier than a Sand Wraith, etc. If you plan on playing competitively, research this. Again, there's a guide on the official HoN forums.Madman has the interesting ability of being incredibly useful in every phase of the game

Now that that's been said, Hero synergy is also something that must be considered. If we run a Demented Shaman/Arachna carry build, substituting a Pestilence as our initiate could be very, very powerful. Dsham and Pestilence can put an enemy hero's armor into the negative 30's easily, and the damage numbers on Arachnas ult at that level get simply staggering (something like 50% to 100% higher than Pyromancer ult)
          
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 10:49:13 am by beeji »

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2010, 01:11:48 pm »
THE OTHER 2 SLOTS (this is not researched well outside of what I see ingame, very open to discussion here)
After the mandatory 2-3 healers, the rest of the team basically makes the strategy. I have noticed that the general strategy of Shens (me included, I suck just as much as all of you. I promise) is to fuck around with no coherent strategy. Strategy is important, mmmkay? Our team composition should directly affect our strategy. If we have 3 healers and 2 pushers/cc/nukers, turtling and jungle farming isn't gonna cut it, their opposing carries will get stacked. However, if we have 3 healers and 2 pushers it is very likely that we can be sitting on their barracks by lvl 10.

Should we choose to run a generic 2 healer comp with a nuker, an initiator, and a psuedocarry, we should play a normal early game/mid game/ late game strategy. Stay in your lane until around level 9 or 10, get your experience, get your gold, stay alive. Once mid game begins, we group up and move as a team. This doesn't mean that we're all gonna stack up and present our anuses for the tempest ulti, we're going to stay together and not wander off alone. Losing a member of the team before the team fight will guarantee the teamfight loss in almost all cases. Should their team be across the map, scattered, or not playing as a team (ie: we're pubstomping) we'll push down a tower, get back, recouperate, push down another tower, etc.

Now, if we don't run a carry team, instead opting to run nukes n healz, we won't outlast a team with a psuedo carry. The mindset that not having a carry won't matter if you cut off the opposing carries farm is accurate, but I believe a current issue is thinking that it means he will be useless all game.  
Let's take two players of equivalent skill, one with lvl 25 chronos and the other lvl 25 plague rider. The chronos has been harassed and has not farmed well, but if you wait out the game to an hour, it won't matter. That plague rider is going to lose. This in mind, teams with no carries are viable- but you can't win an hour long game against players of equal skill. They'll benefit more from turtling.

Regardless of what we choose, keep in mind that in competitive play, carries often get a Shrunken Head as their very first core item. It's that good, my children.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 03:44:20 pm by beeji »

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2010, 01:11:57 pm »
SOME STRATEGY
FOR MORE IN DEPTH GUIDES OF BASIC TECHNIQUES SUCH AS CREEPING, JUKING, AND WARD PLACEMENT: READ THE HoN OFFICIAL FORUMS

LANING http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=2625
Middle Lane
I emphasize middle lane as it is super duper important. Super fucking duper. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of information. Wards are your best friend (note: this does not mean you should be the one buying wards every time you go middle. To be honest, you shouldn't buy them first). Controlling the runes makes and breaks ganks, and with a bottle, makes and breaks your early game farm. If you are in a middle lane, you should know where the rune spawns within 2 seconds of every 2 minute mark. Even if you don't get the rune, it is paramount that you know which enemy hero got it and where it is. Watching an enemy grab haste and run bottom gives you time to warn the bottom lane, who should then be able to evade the incoming gank. This hurts their team, as one of their heros just lost a good deal of farm time for no benefit. To sum up: Know where the runes are, at all times. If you can't get the rune, ensure the other team doesn't benefit from it.
Starting off in the middle lane: Don't check the rune. Don't go place wards. What you need to do is to use your hero to unit block your first creep wave, with an end result of positioning them atop your ramp, so that the enemy hero is left at the bottom of the ramp. In addition, you can execute an attack command against an enemy hero, and pull the enemy creeps towards you. Continue this until they are at the top of your ramp. Do this every creep wave. This makes it easy for you to last hit, hard for him to last hit, and puts you in a very defensive position as often he will not be able to see you through fog of war.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 03:40:55 pm by beeji »

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2010, 01:12:06 pm »
FINAL THOUGHTS, TIPS, TRICKS

Having the strategy and team composition down, we should know who is purchasing what items before the game even begins, at least in banning pick. We should also know who is getting wards & courier, etc.

Specific tips and tricks (positioning yourself correctly, asshole):

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=79352 - Read this. Stay alive. 'Nuff said.

Do not fight a team fight on lower ground. Many attacks will miss, any opponents that you manage to actually hurt will escape due to fog of war. Conversely, fight team fights on high ground!

Situational awareness is paramount. Do not rely on MIA calls (although they should be called anyways), check your minimap frequently. Don't keep your camera focused on your character and put your last hit/deny goggles on, pay attention to your surroundings. Many opportunities to punish a mistake made by an enemy hero or save an allied heroes life are missed because people aren't aware of their surroundings.

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=52834

Read the above guide, specifically the section detailing ganking. Not only is it a great guide to executing a gank, but it's a damn good example of how to get ganked by standing in a dumbshit spot. This game is, believe it or not, a RTS with 99% macro emphasis. Positioning is crucial.


« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 03:17:28 pm by beeji »

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2010, 03:26:21 pm »
This is all I have for now, continue checking for updates as I will be posting them;for the love of Christ, read all of the non hero specific guides in the premium guide section of the official HoN forum.

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2010, 08:45:54 pm »
TL;DR!

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2010, 11:41:48 pm »
TOO LONG SUMARIZE PLESE

But seriously, good read. I think our main problem is just not collaborating enough of hero choices and staying together as a group.

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2010, 11:09:26 am »
ilu wulfenbult

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2010, 11:18:23 am »
GAY META-GAMERS. JUST PLAY THE GAME THE WAY IT WAS DESIGNED TO BE PLAYED. JEEEEEEEEZ

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2010, 11:19:25 am »
GAY META-GAMERS. JUST PLAY THE TEAM GAME WITHOUT PUTTING ANY THOUGHT INTO YOUR TEAM MAKE UP OR STRATEGY. JEEEEEEEEEZ. 1V1 NOOB

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2010, 12:17:58 pm »
All your points are valid though I think we need to set up designated times/games to practice this.  Asking every game to be competitive is too much for some people.

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2010, 12:20:32 pm »
TOO LONG SUMARIZE PLESE

But seriously, good read. I think our main problem is just not collaborating enough of hero choices and staying together as a group.

I think our main issue is we have a tough time taking the game seriously.  Half of us will play to win while the other half just goof around causing disorganization/rage.  We need to have the same mindset going into the game no matter which one it is.

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2010, 12:48:36 pm »
lulzy Pyro build?

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2010, 01:01:54 pm »
I believe there is a Shens conspiracy dubbed the "Lulzy Beeji Rage Build" in which certain members of the community work purposefully to blow ass at the game, making me rage

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2010, 01:11:24 pm »
I believe there is a Shens conspiracy
You should tell Virally about it...

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2010, 01:35:15 pm »
I think our main issue is we have a tough time taking the game seriously.  Half of us will play to win while the other half just goof around causing disorganization/rage.  We need to have the same mindset going into the game no matter which one it is.

THIS...I always play to win, with the only exception of porting into the corner if we are getting hopelessly steamrolled.  But, we should should get some serious games together to practice.

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2010, 04:03:36 pm »
I believe there is a Shens conspiracy
You should tell Virally about it...
OK guys, there's this machine that the government has that makes earthquakes. Why, you may ask. Simple reason really: The government wants to fuck with us.

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2010, 10:36:52 pm »
I believe there is a Shens conspiracy
You should tell Virally about it...
OK guys, there's this machine that the government has that makes earthquakes. Why, you may ask. Simple reason really: The government wants to fuck with us.

...and apparently invade Haiti.

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2010, 10:31:20 am »
Someone give me a number for Virally, I will call him claiming I am the emissary of the "Reptilian Space People Who Run Governments and Cause Earthquakes," and he has been chosen to reveal our existance to the world.

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2010, 11:08:38 am »
Now that he's gone he can't release his anger on the forums. That's why the volcano erupted and the oil well blew up.

Ten bucks says he still reads everything because he deeply misses us ;)

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2010, 11:23:13 am »
Derp.

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2010, 08:38:03 am »
TL;DR!
Ok, read it...

I'm really interested in playing some competitive play, I think it'd be really fun. Of course, we'll always still do lulzy things and randomly play a TMNT game but... No reason we can't also be good at the game :P

What about nymphora as a healer? I played 3 or 4 games with her, and it's insane how much lane control you can get with her and a hero that becomes broken with infinite mana (last night it was Behemoth, that shit was awesome as fuck) And her heals are really nice too, although harder to land in a pinch situation. When you stack an Astrolabe on her it just gets nuts, I prevented at least 5 or 6 deaths last night in that one game...

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2010, 01:15:03 pm »
TL;DR!
Ok, read it...

I'm really interested in playing some competitive play, I think it'd be really fun. Of course, we'll always still do lulzy things and randomly play a TMNT game but... No reason we can't also be good at the game :P

What about nymphora as a healer? I played 3 or 4 games with her, and it's insane how much lane control you can get with her and a hero that becomes broken with infinite mana (last night it was Behemoth, that shit was awesome as fuck) And her heals are really nice too, although harder to land in a pinch situation. When you stack an Astrolabe on her it just gets nuts, I prevented at least 5 or 6 deaths last night in that one game...

Very possible, balance changes with each patch. My post could already be completely outdated.

We really just need a very defensive top lane (as legion, bottom lane as hellbourne) to shut down their safety lane, and a carry/babysit combo in the bottom lane (swap if on hellbourne yada yada). Anyone who disagrees, run dsham and soul reaper top lane and watch their safety lane get shut down.

The only part of this post that will never be outdated is the mother fucking wards. As in any competitive game, knowledge is the most important aspect of the fight. Spending 200g to help your mid lane out a great deal and instantly have knowledge of every gank coming at you is money very well spent.

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2010, 02:07:11 pm »
The common thing to do for that is one support (or just one person from each lane that makes the most sense to not save their money) buys the courier, one support buys the wards? That's what I've seen most of the time.... So each lane has one hero 200g short...

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Re: Competitive Play
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2010, 03:31:47 pm »
It's not just the beginning. We need to have at least two wards up 100% of the time. 200g per hero works, yes, but it needs to be assigned before we go into a skirmish. Maybe we should have that chosen on the competitive thread. Instead of role/date, maybe let's do role/location/date, and your location should technically dictate whether you buy wards or not.